CNN记者采访法图拉·葛兰 葛兰对土耳其政变的回应
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2016-08-12 08:21:56 【来源:伊光】 点击:

当土耳其发生政变的消息通过媒体被世界人知道的时候,第一时间人们看到的是土耳其总统埃尔多安拿着手机利用facetime向他的幕僚通报安全,并且很快通过政府控制的媒体对外发布消息,宣布政府并没有因为政变出现颠覆,并且政府已经控制局势,有效的遏制了政变。呼吁土耳其民众走上街头以国家统一的名义对军事政变者进行抗议。在政变发生之后的几天,埃尔多安采取一系列对政变者的肃清行动。同时再次通过政府控制的媒体开始将政变背后的策划者这一矛头指向法图拉•葛兰。一时间,法图拉•葛兰成为最受争议的人物。法图拉•葛兰究竟是不是这次土耳其政变的真正背后策划者成了人们较为关心的事情。当然,对于稍有理性的人们来说,此时最关心的倒不是背后的策划者是谁,而是究竟谁掌握着评判谁是政变策划者的权力。

正如媒体被某一方势力控制之后,激烈的压制反对派的声音。以至于人们所了解的事物已经失去了多样性以及复杂性。一整套清晰,明了的逻辑摆在人们面前,让本来就具有趋众心理的人们选择了他们可能并不甚了解的结果。

这篇文章来自于CNN记者对于法图拉•葛兰的采访。希望这一简短而又具有很高信息量的文章可以为这个不平衡的言论环境提供些许帮助。


CNN - Fareed Zakaria Fethullah Gulen Interview on 'GPS'

CNN 报道法里德•扎卡瑞亚采访法图拉•葛兰

FZ法里德: Mr. Gulen, thank you so much for joining us. 葛兰先生,非常感谢您接收我们的采访。

FG葛兰: I do thank you.是我应该感谢你。

FZ法里德: Let me ask you about the coup. The Prime Minister of Turkey has now officially said that there is a direct connection between you, personally, and the people who plotted the coup in Turkey. What is your response? 我想问一下关于此次政变的问题。土耳其总理已经发表正式声明,说您本人和此次土耳其政变的策划人之间有直接的关系。您对此作何回应?

FG葛兰: Let an international organization investigate this matter in depth, if there is anything I told anyone about this verbally, if there is any phone conversation, if one-tenth of this accusation is correct in fact, I would bend my neck and would say, “they are telling the truth, let them take me away, let them hang me”. 我建议成立国际组织深入调查此事。如果我给任何人发过口头指令,如果有任何谈话录音,哪怕只能够证明他们所指控的十分之一的罪状,我都会低头认罪并说,“他们说的是事实,你们逮捕我,绞死我吧。”

But, I am talking with certainty, I have neither talk to verb to anyone nor did I say anything to anyone on the phone. Now, in the background, there could be naive people tricked who are sympathetic to you or appear to be sympathetic with you in this situation or pressure to say things with a promise of a reward. I don’t know and I won’t be able to say anything about them.

但是,我现在很确定地说,我既没有面对面、也没有打电话向任何人下达过这样的命令。,话再说回来,在当前的局势下,如果说有几个头脑简单、同情或者貌似同情你的人被蒙骗了,威逼利诱之下说出一些违心的话来,那是完全有可能的。我不知道是否发生了这样的事情,也无法对此加以评说。

However, one of the most important proofs of a haste that emit decision is the fact that the day after the event, thousands of people were fired from their jobs. This clearly shows that, they have been labeled previously and they needed a scenario for such operations. Common sense and good conscious tells this as such.

然而,有非常重要的证据证明(当局)做出了仓促草率的决策——此事发生后的当天,有好几千人被解职。这显然说明给这些人已经提前贴好了标签,就等着有人捅娄子然后借机拿下。但凡有点常识和判断力的人都能够看得出来。

FZ法里德: The Prime Minister and people around him have now made a very specific charge which is  that the coup plotters captured the Army Chief of Staff and that he was told that he could be put directly in touch with you and you would persuade him to support the coup. Is that true? Did you have a message out to the Army Chief of Staff, did you offer in some way to talk to the Army Chief of Staff?

总理和他周围的人很明确地指控说政变发动者们逮捕了总参谋长,并说有人告诉他,可以直接见到您,而您会说服他支持此次政变。这是真的吗?你给总参谋长送过信吗?或者说你以某种方式主动联系过总参谋长吗?

FG葛兰: (Seeking forgiveness from God) If I talk to joint chief of staff one should ask him “did he talk to you on the phone, did he send you a message via someone or did he send you written and signed document. I only know him from distance. As far as I know him from a distance, He is a man of integrity, I don’t think he would say anything contrary to truth.

(先做了祈求真主饶恕的祷告)如果我和总参谋长交谈过,那么人们会问“你和他是在电话上交谈的吗?他通过他人向你送过信吗?还是他向您传递过什么书面的或签署过的文件?据我对他粗浅的了解,他是一个正直的人,我不认为他会说出什么有违事实的话来。”

In this respect, one should ask him this matter directly to him with its entire background and if there is such a scenario and if somebody were tricked into saying something to him it should be investigated.

在这种情况下,应该直接问他本人并避免断章取义。如果有人设局引诱他人对他说了什么,那么就应该调查。

FZ法里德: But, who do you think organize this coup? 但是,您认为是谁发动这次政变呢?

FG葛兰: According to some the ultra-nationalist have planned this and they put some religious appearing people at the front in order to demonize them. with the idea that such a scenario would receive grass-root public acceptance some said so. In fact the President himself said, “this has been a godsend for us”. From now on we can do whatever we want easily etc.

有人认为是极端民族主义者策划了此事,并将一些貌似虔诚信教的人推在最前面,从而将他们妖魔化,以为草根大众会接受这样一个闹剧。实际上,总统本人就说过了,“这是真主送给我们的礼物。”从今往后,我们就可以为所欲为,而且轻而易举。

FZ法里德: You think Erdogan may have secretly planned this coup himself? 你认为是埃尔多安本人秘密导演了这次政变吗?

FG葛兰: I would consider such a claim a slander. that is even if you were my arch enemy wanting to drink my blood. I will submit myself to God before I make such an accusation, knowing that I am accountable to God.   我认为这是一种诽谤。就算你是我的死对头,恨不得将我生吞活剥,那我在做出这样的指控之前先要面对真主,因为我知道我要对真主负责。

FZ法里德: But you don’t deny that many of the people involved may have been sympathetic to you and your ideas? 但是你并没有否认很多与此事有牵连的人很有可能同情你或你的思想?

FG葛兰: There might have been some sympathetic people among them. I would consider them to be betraying the nation, I would consider them to be disrespectful of my longtime ideas, basic thoughts. Because in every coup attack, I the poor, have been adversely affected. 其中很有可能会有一些同情者。我认为这些人背叛了国家。我认为这些人并不尊重我长期以来一直倡导的思想和基本理念。因为在每一次的政变斗争中,我这个可怜的人,都是惨遭横祸。

I have always been against coups since I was spent my entire life with coups and pressures. I had the opinion that nothing good would come out of coups. Coups would divide, separate, disintegrate and make people enemy of each other. This animosity would also effect future generations just like this in Turkey now.

我向来都是反对政变的,因为我的一生中充满了各种政变和高压政策。我曾经指出,政变不会有什么好的结局。政变只会分裂、肢解社会,让人们相互为敌。而这种敌意又会对未来的几代人产生影响,就像当今的土耳其一样。

In this regard, as the common sense requires I have always been against coups and I cursed them. I would curse people who resort the coups against democracy, liberty, republic. This is my general opinion. 出于这种认识,也是常识的要求,我向来都反对政变,诅咒政变。我诅咒那些反对民主、反对自由、反对共和制而诉诸政变的人。这是我一贯的观点。

FZ法里德: The government charges that you have created a parallel state, that you have these network of schools, that brainwash people, that you have people within the bureaucracy who are sympathetic to you, that you have people in the judiciary who are sympathetic to you, that you have people in the army who are sympathetic to you and that this creates a danger to the Turkish State. What is your response?

政府指责说你创造了一个平行政权,你利用自己的学校网络给人们洗脑,说在政府机构里有同情你的人,在司法系统里有同情你的人,在军队里有同情你的人,这就对土耳其政府构成了威胁。你对此作何回应?

FG葛兰: Yes, it is completely natural for people of a nation to be appointed in positions in their own institution. This is to say that they are a part of Turkish nation and they see themselves as a part of Turkish nation. They see themselves as Anatolian people. We are all Anatolian people. This country also belongs those who have sympathy for yours truly as much as it belongs to others. Whether I know them or not is another issue. I cannot know who has been appointed in which position.

一个国家的国民被任命到该国的机关单位担任职务,这是天经地义的事情。这也说明他们是土耳其民族的一部分。他们自视为安那托利亚人,我们都是安那托利亚人。这个国家属于那些同情你的真挚友人的人,也属于其他人。至于我是否认识他们,那是另外一回事。我不可能了解是谁被任命到了什么样的职位。

FZ法里德: But, just to be clear, there that the claim of the government, is that you have all these people who are in the military and the bureaucracy and the judiciary, they are loyal to you and that at your urging, at your direction they are trying to destabilize the Erdogan government. You say no?让我们来澄清一下,政府说,你的这些人任职于军队、政府机构和司法系统,他们忠诚于你,听你的话接受你的指挥。他们试图动摇埃尔多安政府。对此你否认吗?

FG葛兰: I don’t think it is possible. As I have just mentioned, some people staged a scenario, then someone who is seemingly a fan, has led some people into this. It looks more like a Hollywood movie than a military coup. It seems something like a staged scenario. It is understood from what is seen that they prepared the ground to realize what they have already planned. I’m cautious to say that I think. I am not jumping to a conclusion. I am not making a definitive statement. This is what it seems like happening.

我认为这是不可能的。正如我刚才所说,有人上演了一出闹剧,一个貌似狂热分子的人带着一帮子人干了这件事。这与其说是军事政变,还不如说是好莱坞的电影。从中能够看出闹剧的影子。从所观察到的来看,他们步步为营地做准备,并实现了自己的计划。我要谨慎地说这是我的认为,我并没有仓促地得出结论。我也不是在做确定的声明。看起来,所发生的事情就是这样的。

FZ法里德: There is a poll out, an opinion poll in Turkey, it says the majority of people believe that you are behind the coup and then majority of people, very large majority, believe you should go back to Turkey and be tried. How does that make you feel?

在土耳其做了一次民意调查,结果是大多数人都认为是你在幕后策划了此次政变,而且绝大多数人都认为你应该回到土耳其受审。你对此有何感受?

FG葛兰: When the oppositional media is totally silence and not a single one is left and they are in control of all media organizations and watch the same claims again and again through radio, television, newspapers and magazines, it is a natural result that there is such a public opinion at the moment.

反对派的媒体都被封口了,一个都不剩地查封了,他们控制了所有的媒体组织。人们从广播、电视、报纸和杂志看到的都是同一个论调的报道。此时此刻,做这样的民意调查,自然会得到这样的结果。

FZ法里德: Would you be willing to go back to Turkey?你愿意回到土耳其吗?

FG葛兰: Going back to Turkey, would complicate the issue even more so and turn it into an impossible problem to solve. They will do whatever it takes, but if they could provide evidence for one-tenth of what they have been claiming and take me back by force. There is not much I can say about this. What matters is whether or not they can do this by means or law and I don’t think this will happen with the will of God

我回到土耳其只会让事态更加复杂化,变成一个无法解决的问题。他们会不择手段,但是如果他们能够拿出证据来证明哪怕是十分之一他们所罗列的罪状,那么就让他们带我回国。对此我已经没什么可说的了。问题的关键是,他们要通过什么手段带我回去?法律手段还是其他手段?以真主的意志,我认为此事不会发生。

FZ法里德: What is your message to President Erdogan?你对埃尔多安总统有什么话要说吗?

FG葛兰: I only pray that he will not go to the presence of God with all these sins he committed.

我只是祈祷,祈愿他不会带着自己的累累罪恶去见真主。

FZ法里德: Mr. Gulen, thank you so much. 葛兰先生,非常感谢您。

FG葛兰: Not at all. I would like to thank you. They have come all the way. Maybe I might have hurt them with my inappropriate words so I apologize.

没关系。我应该谢谢你才对。都是他们闹的。也许我言辞不当伤害到他们了,在此道歉。(
冶福东译自 读一斋•观点

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